A literary fiction writer once told a romance-writing friend of mine that the difference between sex in literary fiction and sex in romance is that in literary fiction, the characters don't like it. The sad thing is, I read a lot of lit fic, and I don't think I've ever seen sex portrayed in a positive, healthy, unifying light. I can't think of any examples, at least. I get that there's a lot of unhealthy sex out there, and that that can be a really rich source of discussion for a character, but perhaps it's become some unspoken rule that sex can't be a positive thing in lit fic.
I had a conversation with someone who said that she was incredibly confused by Kennedy Ryan's latest book. She didn't know what it was "trying" to be as she was primarily a literary fiction reader. Was it women's fiction or was it romance? I think that what surprised her is that it was messy, and it had emotions, and it had hard issues, AND it also had happily ever after. Because that's how Ryan crafts her stories.
But for someone who typically reads literary fiction, I think there is this idea that romance doesn't have these deeper themes in it and romance that plays outside the trope box is confusing. And maybe that might be part of the reason why people continue to be so dismissive of romance, but don't mind a hot mess in their literary life.
Amy, I think my question for that reader is, why does it matter what genre it is? For a romance reader, it's important to know going in whether or not to expect a HEA or HFN, but for someone who primarily reads literary fiction and liked KR's latest book, I wonder if they're trying to classify it as women's fiction (which I hate labeling books as, btw) so they can feel okay about reading it? Definitely read Natalie's piece that I linked, it directly addresses this!
I think it had more to do with guiding readers. I do see that it can be challenging for reader expectations when there are books with romantic subplots that don't land perfectly in a romance category. For example a book like The Idea of You isn't considered romance, but I think it's quite romantic. I do also struggle with the label of women's fiction, but I guess that signals whether or not readers can expect a happy ending? I love literary fiction so much, and do think there can be healthy romance in both genres. The Most Fun We Ever Had is a great example!
Okay, so I can’t stop and I think you and I need to get together to talk about this for HOURS ☺️ But this piece sums up exactly my feelings about the term “literary fiction”:
Oooh I need to revisit the Most Fun ~ I guess I wouldn’t have put that in my literary fiction bucket because for me that label tends to lean darker and I don’t remember that book being that way. I believe I classified it as family fiction? I totally get what you’re saying about expectations though, and romance readers 100% have the most cemented expectations of any genre readers. I wish there was a label other than literary fiction everyone used that would indicate books that aren’t any other niche genre but also aren’t depressing and experimental? Like family fiction but ??? We have historical fiction, so maybe using contemporary fiction will be my go-to. And just get rid of the term “literary” as a genre and use “experimental” or something for books that the literati adore ….. it’s fun to ponder this!
Now I kinda want to read it to compare. Since I read only romance right now it would be interesting. I’ve read pretty broadly (but I’m sure there are tropes in the genre I’m missing). I enjoyed the first book in this series a lot so now I’m curious. May just need to use those BOTM credits on it so I can get them used and finally cancel (I have too many unread books and they don’t always have books I’m interested in right now).
Hey Sonya! I don't name the book that I'm discussing above, so I don't want you to be mistaken about which one it is. Please shoot me an email at mindfullibrarian@substack.com if you would like me to share the title with you!
I remember when I first started writing fiction, my teachers said of writing romance/sex scenes: you have to decide if you’re a door open writer or a door closed one. I’m 100 percent door closed. My characters canoodle, then the door shuts. But I love when a literary or commercial book writes about sex from the point of view of an empowered woman finding herself in that realm. To me, it’s just a matter of a writer is comfortable portraying sex and if it moves the plot forward. I’m not a fan of gratuitous sex in novels similar to how I dislike gratuitous violence in action movies. It just doesn’t need to be there. But that’s just me. I know millions of readers/viewers love both and I think from a plot/character development point of view. ;)
I think writing those scenes must be the absolute hardest thing ever to write! When it's done poorly it's so noticeable, so I think it's a good thing that authors are advised to decide from the outset whether they are open or closed door types of writers :-) I think also that a book needs to be written from the outset with that decision made since I find it awkward when there is zero sexual energy the entire book and then BAM, a long, very graphic bedroom scene. It really needs to build!
I always find it strange when people are so put off by sex scenes generally, but that aside, on this topic I feel the same as I do so many other book related topics: why do people feel the need to judge what others like to read? All genres have literary merit and these categories aren't fixed. Plus, we all have slightly different tastes, not to mention we all experience books differently based on our own unique perspectives, whose to say what is a "good vs bad" book or "worthy vs unworthy" or however you want to say it. Like, read and let read, you know?
Amen, Stephanie! Read and let read for sure. I have lots and lots of books that aren't to my taste and fandoms I don't even begin to understand but I'm happy they're making other people happy!
I recently published a book with a page of content warnings. Why? My editor was concerned readers might be triggered by the references to infidelity, maternal suicide, and verbal abuse by a mother to a son, none of which occurred on page. There are also deEPly LovIng depictions of explicit physical intimacy. And wildfires.
I wrote a heartfelt trigger warning for readers.
Then I finally sat down to read last year’s lauded literary debut by an older female writer and found a violent and extremely graphic rape scene in the first or second chapter. There was no content warning to prepare me for this. The book was touted as humorous. I’m sure it is in places. The writing is good. But I skipped past the rape scene. I couldn’t stomach it.
I read a bit more and haven’t gone back to it. I probably will finish it at some point, but honestly I’m concerned I’ll find more violation on page.
So I love your question… What’s up with the Literati who can’t get enough of depravity and condemn love?
I’ll be posting a satirical video addressing this topic on my substack in the coming weeks.
Tara, I think I know the book you are referring to, and I also get extremely confused by the double standards between genres. Humorous + rape is a non-equation for me, and honestly, I can't read rape scenes at all. I also can't read incest or sexual abuse of a child and these are prevalent in literary fiction. I want my sex on the page happy and consensual and intimate. I really don't think that should be something to be ashamed of, but in the world of literary snobbery, it really is.
This resonated so much with me! I wonder how much of this is leftover Puritanism and the knots it's left us all in and how much is denial of women's pleasure, which romance is usually much more focused on than literary fiction. And how much is just classic literary snobbery...
I could have just written that, Natalie ~ you're way more concise than I am! Entire post: Puritanism + denial of women's pleasure + snobbery = the majority of literary fiction's attitude toward sex in fiction. On top of that depiction, though, what confuses me so much is why reviewers don't discuss this aspect of lit fic books. They glance over this and casually allude to it, and in this case, I don't know how they possibly can.
For example, here is George Saunders' blurb: "“A giddy, bold, mind-blowing tour de force by one of our most important literary writers. Funny, honest, rich with the energy of the mind, All Fours will jump-start your relation to language and cause you to think anew about the nature of desire.” – George Saunders, Booker Prize winning author of Lincoln in the Bardo"
Ooh you’ve struck a chord with me! I agree completely. I don’t understand the disparagement. For those who critique and say well this isn’t real life—first off, DUH. Quite a bit of fiction is not real life. There’s many literary greats that are not realistic at all either. And any book will resonate if it has a glimmer of a universal truth and that can be the case for any genre. This is going to turn into a rant so I’ll stop now, but YES. Let’s be mature and let people read what they want without judgment!
A literary fiction writer once told a romance-writing friend of mine that the difference between sex in literary fiction and sex in romance is that in literary fiction, the characters don't like it. The sad thing is, I read a lot of lit fic, and I don't think I've ever seen sex portrayed in a positive, healthy, unifying light. I can't think of any examples, at least. I get that there's a lot of unhealthy sex out there, and that that can be a really rich source of discussion for a character, but perhaps it's become some unspoken rule that sex can't be a positive thing in lit fic.
Laura, I've thought that exact same thing for years and it breaks my heart. What a sad, sad world that must be to write in!
I had a conversation with someone who said that she was incredibly confused by Kennedy Ryan's latest book. She didn't know what it was "trying" to be as she was primarily a literary fiction reader. Was it women's fiction or was it romance? I think that what surprised her is that it was messy, and it had emotions, and it had hard issues, AND it also had happily ever after. Because that's how Ryan crafts her stories.
But for someone who typically reads literary fiction, I think there is this idea that romance doesn't have these deeper themes in it and romance that plays outside the trope box is confusing. And maybe that might be part of the reason why people continue to be so dismissive of romance, but don't mind a hot mess in their literary life.
Amy, I think my question for that reader is, why does it matter what genre it is? For a romance reader, it's important to know going in whether or not to expect a HEA or HFN, but for someone who primarily reads literary fiction and liked KR's latest book, I wonder if they're trying to classify it as women's fiction (which I hate labeling books as, btw) so they can feel okay about reading it? Definitely read Natalie's piece that I linked, it directly addresses this!
I think it had more to do with guiding readers. I do see that it can be challenging for reader expectations when there are books with romantic subplots that don't land perfectly in a romance category. For example a book like The Idea of You isn't considered romance, but I think it's quite romantic. I do also struggle with the label of women's fiction, but I guess that signals whether or not readers can expect a happy ending? I love literary fiction so much, and do think there can be healthy romance in both genres. The Most Fun We Ever Had is a great example!
Okay, so I can’t stop and I think you and I need to get together to talk about this for HOURS ☺️ But this piece sums up exactly my feelings about the term “literary fiction”:
https://bookriot.com/what-is-literary-fiction/
Oooh I need to revisit the Most Fun ~ I guess I wouldn’t have put that in my literary fiction bucket because for me that label tends to lean darker and I don’t remember that book being that way. I believe I classified it as family fiction? I totally get what you’re saying about expectations though, and romance readers 100% have the most cemented expectations of any genre readers. I wish there was a label other than literary fiction everyone used that would indicate books that aren’t any other niche genre but also aren’t depressing and experimental? Like family fiction but ??? We have historical fiction, so maybe using contemporary fiction will be my go-to. And just get rid of the term “literary” as a genre and use “experimental” or something for books that the literati adore ….. it’s fun to ponder this!
Now I kinda want to read it to compare. Since I read only romance right now it would be interesting. I’ve read pretty broadly (but I’m sure there are tropes in the genre I’m missing). I enjoyed the first book in this series a lot so now I’m curious. May just need to use those BOTM credits on it so I can get them used and finally cancel (I have too many unread books and they don’t always have books I’m interested in right now).
Hey Sonya! I don't name the book that I'm discussing above, so I don't want you to be mistaken about which one it is. Please shoot me an email at mindfullibrarian@substack.com if you would like me to share the title with you!
Oh sending just in case🙈
I remember when I first started writing fiction, my teachers said of writing romance/sex scenes: you have to decide if you’re a door open writer or a door closed one. I’m 100 percent door closed. My characters canoodle, then the door shuts. But I love when a literary or commercial book writes about sex from the point of view of an empowered woman finding herself in that realm. To me, it’s just a matter of a writer is comfortable portraying sex and if it moves the plot forward. I’m not a fan of gratuitous sex in novels similar to how I dislike gratuitous violence in action movies. It just doesn’t need to be there. But that’s just me. I know millions of readers/viewers love both and I think from a plot/character development point of view. ;)
I think writing those scenes must be the absolute hardest thing ever to write! When it's done poorly it's so noticeable, so I think it's a good thing that authors are advised to decide from the outset whether they are open or closed door types of writers :-) I think also that a book needs to be written from the outset with that decision made since I find it awkward when there is zero sexual energy the entire book and then BAM, a long, very graphic bedroom scene. It really needs to build!
I always find it strange when people are so put off by sex scenes generally, but that aside, on this topic I feel the same as I do so many other book related topics: why do people feel the need to judge what others like to read? All genres have literary merit and these categories aren't fixed. Plus, we all have slightly different tastes, not to mention we all experience books differently based on our own unique perspectives, whose to say what is a "good vs bad" book or "worthy vs unworthy" or however you want to say it. Like, read and let read, you know?
Amen, Stephanie! Read and let read for sure. I have lots and lots of books that aren't to my taste and fandoms I don't even begin to understand but I'm happy they're making other people happy!
I recently published a book with a page of content warnings. Why? My editor was concerned readers might be triggered by the references to infidelity, maternal suicide, and verbal abuse by a mother to a son, none of which occurred on page. There are also deEPly LovIng depictions of explicit physical intimacy. And wildfires.
I wrote a heartfelt trigger warning for readers.
Then I finally sat down to read last year’s lauded literary debut by an older female writer and found a violent and extremely graphic rape scene in the first or second chapter. There was no content warning to prepare me for this. The book was touted as humorous. I’m sure it is in places. The writing is good. But I skipped past the rape scene. I couldn’t stomach it.
I read a bit more and haven’t gone back to it. I probably will finish it at some point, but honestly I’m concerned I’ll find more violation on page.
So I love your question… What’s up with the Literati who can’t get enough of depravity and condemn love?
I’ll be posting a satirical video addressing this topic on my substack in the coming weeks.
Tara, I think I know the book you are referring to, and I also get extremely confused by the double standards between genres. Humorous + rape is a non-equation for me, and honestly, I can't read rape scenes at all. I also can't read incest or sexual abuse of a child and these are prevalent in literary fiction. I want my sex on the page happy and consensual and intimate. I really don't think that should be something to be ashamed of, but in the world of literary snobbery, it really is.
This resonated so much with me! I wonder how much of this is leftover Puritanism and the knots it's left us all in and how much is denial of women's pleasure, which romance is usually much more focused on than literary fiction. And how much is just classic literary snobbery...
I could have just written that, Natalie ~ you're way more concise than I am! Entire post: Puritanism + denial of women's pleasure + snobbery = the majority of literary fiction's attitude toward sex in fiction. On top of that depiction, though, what confuses me so much is why reviewers don't discuss this aspect of lit fic books. They glance over this and casually allude to it, and in this case, I don't know how they possibly can.
For example, here is George Saunders' blurb: "“A giddy, bold, mind-blowing tour de force by one of our most important literary writers. Funny, honest, rich with the energy of the mind, All Fours will jump-start your relation to language and cause you to think anew about the nature of desire.” – George Saunders, Booker Prize winning author of Lincoln in the Bardo"
Yes! That kind of talking around it is just bizarre. And not helpful for readers, honestly.
Ooh you’ve struck a chord with me! I agree completely. I don’t understand the disparagement. For those who critique and say well this isn’t real life—first off, DUH. Quite a bit of fiction is not real life. There’s many literary greats that are not realistic at all either. And any book will resonate if it has a glimmer of a universal truth and that can be the case for any genre. This is going to turn into a rant so I’ll stop now, but YES. Let’s be mature and let people read what they want without judgment!
I wish we could get together and rant for hours!! And I so agree that I also search for and love books with a glimmer of a universal truth :-)